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Jon 04/21/2012 3:38:00 PM
I meant to comment on this a few years ago when I read this. Gustavo, the Mariners event referred to at the end of the article was a community outreach tree lighting event, designed to be more festive than evangelical. BTW, congrats on the new book! It's really good.
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Steve 04/20/2011 11:01:00 PM
FYI...NewSong Church is not an offspring of Mariners. It is a completely separate congregation, started by Pastor Dave Gibbons in his apartment, and is technically a member of the Covenant Church.
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Jerry Giem 06/11/2010 6:39:00 AM
Shame on the Mariners Church for firing Bob Gunn, a man of God for being gay. God created him gay and he blesses God with his life and music. God doesn't discriminate, why do they?
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Scott 06/03/2010 8:19:00 AM
Great article, thanks Gustavo. We like attending Mariners - it's very organized and the services are uplifting. But the gay bashing makes me feel uncomfortable. A bit like attending a lovely Christian church in old Mississippi where Blacks weren't welcome. I actually went to such a church in Mississippi in the 1970's. Mariners feels like a rerun - only now its gays instead of Blacks, and California instead of Mississippi. The Devil has many guises...
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rod dures 04/14/2009 6:16:00 PM
I have known Bob since 1989, we met when I travelled to the States to be part of a small Lutheran singing group. He palyed piano & I operated the sound & set up. We became very good friends over a 6 month period. I can only assume he may have had homosexual feelings then. That only makes me appreciate Bob more for what he has achieved. I love my mate Bob, I haven't spoken to him in maybe 7 years, but I certainly shed a tear the day I went back to Australia.
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Flo Martin 01/13/2009 4:02:00 AM
I sang under Bob's leadership in the Mariners choir during his entire tenure and grew to love Bob like a son. Bob's letter to the choir after his sudden departure was devastating to us all. I, personally, do not subscribe to interpreting homosexual acts as a moral sin...and I consider myself a Christian.
When my husband and I found out that Bob was part of MenAlive, we attended their next concert and signed up at the concert venue as season subscribers. That was 3 years ago...and we admire Bob even more.
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Art Scott 12/26/2008 6:30:00 PM
As a fellow church musician (30 years), I can empathize with Bob Gunn and the pain he has been through. Mr. Gunn is probably one of the most talented church musicans in America. It is a choice though to either hide one's sexuality when working with and for evangelicals who are still homophobes OR work within the ranks of open and affirming congregation and denominations such as Methodist, Episcopal, United Church of Christ, Church of Religious Science. Thank God for organizations like soulforce.org who are trying to educate these misinformed church denominations. The risk of being outed is always present and there are senior pastors, music directors, church musicians worldwide hiding in huge closets. This is nothing new. God ultimately is the final judge and someday the accounting ledgers will be justified. Until that time, educating church leaders on appropriate ways to handle delicate issues surrounding terminations would be a start, hiring experts in the field of HR would be a start. To defame an employee from the pulpit just doesn't make sense and is wrong - period, during or after the fact. Mel White coined the phrase Spiritual Violence; evangelicals are famous for this. Two issues seem at stake; taking the risk of working in an environment where one knows up front they are operating against the standards / convictions of an employer; secondly the proper way to confidentially terminate an employee who does not meet the criterion needed and or required. When these elements are connected to any religious organization, the ramifications are always hurtful and if not handled swiftly and professional can result in a catastrophe. Even the late Jerry Falwell with the Old Time Gospel Hour ministry was flooded with gay and lesbian closeted folks at every level of his payroll - and he knew it. I graduated from his University in 1980. I am told the same is true at TBN.
From his TV production staff, music department down to the mail room there are still gay and lesbian people there today who have chosen to hide their true sexuality. Often ministers will exploit the creativity of Gay and Lesbian people and allow them to operate in the closet - this is also wrong. I have no doubt that Kenton Beshore and other members of the staff and board at Mariners either sensed or knew Mr. Gunn was not a heterosexual, but they exploited him for his talent and ability for many years and when someone choose to out him - the game was over. Many issues here, very complex with a very sad outcome. I appreciated OC Weekly bringing out this situation and may it be a lesson for all concerned.
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Brian 12/24/2008 9:09:00 AM
I can�t decide which is more pathetic� A church that fires a talented musician for something as innocuous as being gay, the foul Mariner�s Christmas show, more suited for �America�s Got Talent� than a reminder of what Jesus was all about, or the incredibly vapid comments from the �Marlene�s of the world, who seems to get all of her logic from �Pastor Skip� or whoever is spoon-feeding her her spirituality, cuz, uh, it�s, like, easier that way. All of them, I am afraid, are products of living in an empty, shallow community devoid of reason and modernity, where religion and spirituality manifest themselves in persecution of gays (you�ve moved on from blacks and women! Kudos!), vapid, soulless Christmas productions (anyone else see Newport Harbor Lutheran�s �Messiah�? Amazing!!), and people who cherry-pick what they�ve been told the Bible says, without any sense of discernment over taking a 2000-year-old document, where people thought that illness was caused by evil spirits and the earth was the center of the universe, and applying it to the modern world. I wonder if Mariner�s has any divorced people in positions of leadership, or people who haven�t honored their parents� or worked on the Sabbath. Here�s a homework assignment, Marlene (or any of your Marlene�s out there). Go find out what your magic book has to say about divorce, and then, start a campaign to have all the divorced people in the Mariner�s congregation fired, excommunicated, or burnt at the stake (whatever you Christians are doing these days to your sinners). Hey, then after that, we can talk about what Jesus had to say about wealth. Oh�I forgot�.this is Newport Beach, after all, and the men there like to dump their wives and cars for newer, perkier models every ten years or so. What could I have been thinking? Mr. Gunn will have to live for that one day when he, like Galileo, blacks, women, and all the other victims of religious persecution, will one day be vindicated.
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Gabriel 12/23/2008 6:42:00 PM
OMGoodness all this fighting about whats right and wrong. Its a shame that certain Christians speak like if their mouth dont stink. Please dont say your Christian when you talk bad about anyone or point the finger at a sinner cause the word Christian is perfect enough and dosnt need your help to make it sound better. I think people say their Christian to make themself look perfect. Well we are not, I just wish Jesus was here so he may hold Bob Gunn by the hand in front of all you new age pharasees called Christians. He would love him for who he is just like he loves Mary of Magdalen, St. Frances of Asisi, and other well known sinners. God came for the sinners, not for you Christians that are perfect and live a Christian lifestyle with your heterosexual spouse when tim and time again your getting divorced, adultry, child abuse of many forms, with sinfull thoughts of lust while your in church, or mocking, gossiping in chirch about others. Oh no your not bad at all your going straight to heaven with a remote for the pearly gates. Well guess what, the lord said that those who think their the first to enter his kindom will be the last ones. He came for the meek, sick, drug addicts, prostitutes, but explain to got why you threw a sinner out of the lords house. You think he would throw a sinner out? Our body and flesh is weak, but your soul and faith may be strong and thats what the lord cares about, not your body, your body stays here for the devil to enjoy, what can he do with it? Nothing cause Jesus already paid the price for our sins and you people are still crucifying him with Bob Dunn, Shame on all of you for treating your brother in christ this way, shame on you. I know some people dont know better, so if it dosnt come from your heart please dont comment. Mr. Bob Dunn thank you for everything you do for us at MenAlive, we love you as Jesus taught me to love any human being out here.
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Gene 12/23/2008 6:09:00 AM
I have never understood why gays join a religion that says homosexuality is a sin - and then complain that the religion says homosexuality is a sin.
That would be like me joining an orthodox Jewish group and then complaining that they tell me I have to keep kosher.
Doesn't make sense to me.
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John 12/23/2008 5:50:00 AM
Marlene, you're sick and give Christianity a bad name.
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Marlene 12/22/2008 11:25:00 PM
Mainers Church Board did the right thing for asking Gunn to step down. As a professing Christian there needs to be a stand against immoral sin. Christians do not hate gays, but rather the sinful act. Mariners has to protect the body from any further sin. There has been many cases of child molestation and spreading the disease of AIDS in the homosexual community.
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Gustavo Arellano 12/21/2008 11:29:00 PM
To those who have left compliments: Gracias!
Clyde: Tell me more at GArellano@ocweekly.com. Anonymity guaranteed!
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Mike 12/21/2008 8:49:00 PM
How convenient to pick and choose your OLD Testament biblical abominations...there were probably a few folks eating shrimp at the Mariners Christmas Party...and right in front of each other (how disgusting). If homosexuality was really so sinful or the future demise of the human race, don't you think Jesus would have addressed it in his ministry?
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Howard Ahmanson 12/21/2008 8:09:00 PM
Dr. Beshore at no time in his remarks stated what particular sexual sins Mr. Gunn had committed. And Mariners and South Coast have terminated leaders in the past for sexual sins that were not homosexual, so you can't accuse them of singling that one sin out. No defamation here !
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Clyde 12/21/2008 9:47:00 AM
Lana, Virginia,
In your passion to set others straight, please remember that we're supposed to proceed "But First." (Mt 7 or Ro 2 if you prefer) Unlike the Samaritan, we Christians tend to kick broken people to the curb as we haughtily walk by. There are very few among us that deal with their own stick in the eye so that we may see clearly to assist others with their problems. Let the one who is without sin among us throw the first proof text. XP XD
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Clyde 12/21/2008 9:17:00 AM
Thanks for a good article Gustavo. I appreciate the informative details on both sides of the legal wrangling. Unfortunately Mr. Gunn is only one chapter of the Mariners saga where some folks before him and many after him were thrown out for the benefit of the corporate building plan or to save the face of the edifice. Because of your writing skills, I wish that you could tell the larger story. Mariners has a handsome face and a beguiling voice, but there is something quite ugly behind the mask.
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Bonnie 12/21/2008 2:39:00 AM
I confess. I don't understand why people keep quoting the Bible. Are they foreigners? Don't they know America was founded to escape religious persecution? Don't they know about the U.S. pledge for liberty and justice for all? Don't they know what "separate church and state" means.
Religious types are free to quote whatever Bible verse they want, but that argument has got nothing to do with a country committed to making everyone equal under the Laws of that Country.
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Annie 12/21/2008 2:35:00 AM
Don't people want to protect gays from Family Court? See www..FamilyLawCourts.com
Want to know more about good or bad judges? See www.USAjudges.com
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Stanley Fiala 12/20/2008 7:38:00 AM
To me the issue of the homosexuality is simple one.... it is like eating a food.
If you do not trow-up after the meal than the meal is kosher.
I newer vomit after seeing two lesbians playing with their vaginas. The exact opposite is true. I love it and all associated fetishes.
However, I get nauseated when two guys play with their penises. So such filth is sickening and should be baned.
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Paul D Cook-Giles 12/20/2008 2:04:00 AM
Bah. Typically circular reasoning of the unthinking, uncritical masses being fed a stitched-together cherry-picked version of the Gospel: "Being gay is not a sin, but acting gay is. They have sex outside marriage. We love the sinners....but we won't let them get married."
Lana, ask your gay friends --I'm sure you have many; everyone who condemns gay people have lots of gay friends, including Mr. Warren-- when they 'decided' to be gay. You may be able to help them by telling them about the occasion when you decided to be straight.
Go listen to the praises of God, brought forth from the hands and voices of the Church's gay and lesbian choir directors and members, the organists and the praise leaders. Observe the good works done by millions of gay and lesbian christians. Consider the Gospel lived by these people and remember that trees are known by their fruit. What fruit are you bearing?
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Virginia Moreno 12/20/2008 12:19:00 AM
Lana,
Please read what God's Word really says in Romans 1.... it says the sin is Idolatry, not homosexuality. Please look at Romans 1:18 - 23 for the reason God give them up to their unrighteousness. Keep in mind at the end of the chapter, Paul makes a list of those who are also unworthy. Ezekiel also states that the reason for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was because of
inhospitality. Please, please, please read the Word of God and not rely on the words of others.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS {man} SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
Rom 1:25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
Rom 1:27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
Rom 1:28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; {they are} gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Peace
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Rich Kane 12/19/2008 10:53:00 PM
Lana: Can you please explain my "homosexual lifestyle" to me? Because I have yet to meet one fundie who's ever gotten this right . . . seems simple enough, no?
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formersocalres 12/19/2008 9:00:00 AM
nice story - great to hear another one escapes the crazy OC fundies and their stolen Jesus
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Lana 12/19/2008 7:23:00 AM
Being gay is not a sin, but living a homosexual lifestyle is against what the Bible teaches. Many times it says that if a man lie with a man it is an abomination to the Lord. If you are gay and you know what the Bible says about it and you want to still say it is ok to have sexual relations with the same sex - you are not living in the truth. Many people don't have sexual relations outside of marriage because it is wrong - why is it ok to cover the "sexual sin" just because you are gay. Sex is wrong outside of a man and a woman and outside of marriage. Perversion comes from sin which leads to death. Homosexuality is a perversion - not what God created but what man engages in to live out their own lusts or maybe the gene pool is just poisoned.
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Princess Leah 12/19/2008 3:51:00 AM
Nicely done, Gustavo.
